Staying in Control

Managing Money and Finances

Staying in Control: Managing Money and Finances

Transcript

[BEGINNING OF RECORDED MATERIAL]

Kevyn: Hello, my name is Kevyn. I am a First Nations advocate with Dementia Australia. For more than 50,000 years, we have come together to trade knowledge, to learn, and to teach. Today, we join to keep up that tradition. So, with that in mind, we now pay our respects to the Traditional Owners, to Elders past and present, to those First Nations people joining us here today,

Deanne: They're just more vulnerable. I don't know why, but it seems in dementia people trust people more. My dad would trust anybody. People in the middle of the shopping centre selling raffle tickets. I had gone to the bathroom, and I'd come out, and I could see Dad had his credit card out. I just left him there, and I said, "What are you doing? And they said, "Oh, they just signed him up for a year long monthly direct debit". And I said, "Did you ask him his name? And he said, "Oh no". I said, "Ask him". He couldn't remember his own name.

Hamish: Money is personal. It gives you independence. It gives you security. It can be a sum of your whole lifetime of work. But, after a dementia diagnosis, managing it can become complicated. And what starts as a little help, can quietly turn into something else, someone taking control. Often it happens without anyone noticing.

Jim: Financial abuse can creep in slowly, disguised sometimes as help, advice, or care. So, how do you spot it early and stay one step ahead, and make sure the support around you is actually protecting your independence?

Hamish: This is Hold the Moment, a podcast sharing real experiences from people living with dementia, their carers, and the professionals working to support them. I'm Hamish Macdonald. I cared for my dad, who was living with Parkinson's and Lewy body dementia.

Jim: And I'm Jim Rogers, and I'm living with young onset Alzheimer's. In this episode, you'll meet Deanne, who knows the banking industry inside out and has had to use her knowledge to safeguard her dad's financial independence after his dementia diagnosis.

Hamish: But right now, I want to introduce you to Robert Fitzgerald, Australia's Age Discrimination Commissioner. He's raising awareness of financial abuse in banking, super, and community services. And he wants to show families how to spot it and to take action. Robert, welcome to Hold the Moment.

Jim: Welcome, Robert.

Robert: It's good to be here. Thank you.

Hamish: Can you just set the scene for us? What are the usual motivations that drive financial control?

Robert: So, a couple of things we should say right at the beginning. Financial abuse of older people, and indeed people with disabilities, is increasing in Australia, at quite a rapid rate. And there's a couple of factors behind that. Simply, we're an ageing society, where about 17% of the population are over 65. 20 years from now, it'll be 25%. The second thing is, the risk factors in relation to financial abuse of older people haven't changed at all. So, there's simply a very much greater population moving into older age, and those risk factors, including the very drivers of financial elder abuse. And the third thing I should just say is most elder abuse takes place between 75 and 85 years of age, and of course, 75 is the age where many people start to lose some aspects in relation to their cognitive ability, whether or not they have a diagnosis of dementia or other things. So, that's the background, but the actual drivers are really multifaceted, as you said in the introduction. It often starts by being helpful, and that occurs, but you know, the children, the adult children, which are largely the group that perpetrate elder abuse, will say, we're going to help you with managing your credit cards, we're going to help you manage your internet banking, and so on and so forth, and that's terrific. And then suddenly it moves, it changes, and it changes. Particularly they'll say, well, I'm sure our grandparents would like to help out with the grandchildren, sure they'd like to pay for the school fees, sure they wouldn't like us to be suffering these financial difficulties. And then it becomes, oh, they'd like to help out with the mortgage. Then ultimately, they say this, well, they're going to leave it to us anyway, we might as well have it now. So, what started off as helpful conduct ultimately becomes, really, theft and criminal conduct. So that's one group. The second group are motivated slightly differently. They don't want to take the money, but they don't want you to spend it. This is actually the really hidden one, and that is called inheritance maintenance, where they stop you spending the money on all sorts of things, services, going out.

Hamish: This is the carer, the child,

Robert: Yep, the adult children or the carers, and they prevent you going out, they prevent you spending the money. Even to the point they prevent you from going into a retirement village, or even into residential aged care. So, they don't take the money, but they won't let you spend it.

Hamish: I can't get my parents to spend their money. I keep saying, don't leave it to us.

Robert: I know. Well, you're the good part of the story. The other part of the story is, don't spend it, and that actually leads to neglect, and neglect leads to hospitalisation, and ultimately death. And there's a whole range of other factors. Problem gamblers, for example, in a family will invariably abuse older people. People that are suffering financial stress will invariably look at ways of obtaining some relief, and those factors have grown in recent times, and it goes on. And then there's this group that, frankly, are just simply out to extort money from elderly people, and that's called exploitation. They're small in number, but they move from victim to victim, and they're very good at it, and it's very, very hard to stop them.

Jim: I mean, you hear of this so often. I mean, you see stories in the media of people that have been exposed to this. You've mentioned the family dynamic is often at the core. Do you know stories of this happening outside of the family?

Robert: Yeah, so about 70% of all abuse of older people, financial abuse, takes place mostly by adult children, also intimate partners. And so, the rest are neighbours, people that are carers. They're not part of the family, but they're actually carers, or they're simply friends. But I'll give you an example of one that took place when I was in my former role as Ageing Disability Commissioner in New South Wales. It was a congregational member. it was within a church. A woman developed a relationship, not in any intimate sense, with a member of the congregation. He was deliberately out to exploit her. He ultimately moved in with her, became the carer, and he extorted about $250,000 from her. But, another member of the congregation actually reported it to the helpline, a third party, which is the vast majority of people that go to those helplines. And by that intervention, they were able to stop any further abuse. The fellow was, in fact, ultimately charged. The good news was they were able to save a unit being transferred into his name. The bad news was the $250,000 had gone. And that's a classic example of a trusted relationship in sort of a church community, could be any other sort of arrangement, which exists outside of the family unit. And that person was out to exploit; he would move on from target to target to target until he stopped.

Hamish: Robert, it strikes me that when we're talking about dementia and everything that that can involve, we might land in some slightly grey areas here, where you might have someone that is partly cognitive but can't necessarily manage their finances, having strong views about what they want, but that maybe not being safe or the right thing for them, and relying on family members to make decisions in their best interests, but which they don't agree with.

Robert: So, part of the problem is family dynamics are really problematic in Australia, in the sense that we don't have defined roles. There's no particular notion of why you should care for older Australians. It's a very unusual problem. There is absolutely no narrative around why you should care for an older person in Australia. There is, in every other culture, there is expectations. There is nothing in Australia, and I'm not quite sure why that is. So, when you actually come to the family dynamic, it isn't automatically understood. In some cultures, it is. There's roles, there's responsibilities, it's understood. Ours isn't. But we don't negotiate that. We don't talk about, and so what happens is quite rightfully, people go off and they get their enduring powers of attorney. They might, if they're very sensible, get enduring guardianship. They'll make Wills and do that, but in a sense what they don't do is, they don't talk to the whole family. And so, suddenly one brother, one sister starts to take exception to the way in which somebody is caring for another. And a lot of the calls to the helplines around Australia come from other family members that are concerned. But the dangerous thing is, if you don't talk about it, there are no safeguards. So, one of the most important things you have to do is, you have to tell everybody the arrangements you've entered into. You have to tell everybody you know that you've got a power of attorney and you've given it to Fred or to Mary. And if you do that, other people will start to have eyes on it. It won't necessarily solve the intrinsic difficulties, but it's very important, and typically, typically they go off to a lawyer, they do it almost in private, almost nobody knows the arrangements until two or three years later.

Jim: I think one of the main factors is communication, isn't it? Massively, because there's a complex situation just amongst what the actual person who's struggling with dementia feels, and then who's going to take charge. And then there's the feelings to take into account of the other members. What sort of red flags would be things to look out for, for somebody who is putting this sort of, you know,

Hamish: Arrangements? Is that what you're talking about?

Jim: Yeah, red flags.

Robert: The red flags are always loss of starting to lose control. And so, you start to see a particular individual, an older person or a person with a disability, and gradually their control and the decisions around their life, their social life, the service they receive are starting to be made by a third party. Can be a brother or sister. The second thing is the nature of those decisions start to change. I'll give you an example. A carer bought themselves a car with the money of the individual under a power of attorney because they took them to medical, you know, appointments once a week. And yet they actually thought it was okay to buy a car, 30, 40, $50,000 worth. That would be a huge red flag. So, it's not only that they're taking control, but they're starting to make decisions that don't look right, that don't feel right, and that's quite in. And the third thing is secrecy. True abusers, where they've moved from being just helpful to, into this phase that I talked about of actually, you know, wrongful behaviour, there's a point at which it turns from, oh well, I'm just, you know, trying to do the right thing to actually, I know intentionally that I'm doing the wrong thing. And it's very, very critical at that point that you'll start to see really perverse behaviours. They'll become very secret, and it's all about, in domestic and family violence, it's about, you know, coercive control. Well, coercive control exists in all forms of abuse of older people, and it's particularly true in relation to financial abuse, but it can actually be overt. I'll give you an example of that, where one of the greatest things that happens with older people is the threat that if you don't give me the money, you won't be allowed to see the grandchildren. They withdraw access to the grandchildren, and that is coercive control in its extreme. But that, if it's hidden, never gets known. But if the person talks to other people, then you start to see those red flags.

Jim: So, for carers navigating this for the first time without sort of any financial background, how do you walk that line between being supportive and yet not jumping in too quickly. You know, what you should be keeping an eye on?

Robert: If you're the person that's actually caring? Or you're a person,

Jim: Yeah, if you're going to be the carer.

Robert: So, the carer, I think, has this role to actually acknowledge that the loss of capacity is gradual and takes time, and to start to sort of plan for that over time. And it's about having the conversation with the individual, if you can, to actually talk about what the stages might look like. To seek advice from people that can give it, whether it's Dementia Australia or others, because everyone's been down these paths. And to actually sort of, have a, sort of a, not a detailed plan, but a thoughtfulness around this arrangement, what's going to happen. And when you do start to have to take more and more decision making control, if you want, from the individual, then it's done with a thoughtfulness, not just an assumption. And that's the big problem. And once you get to the point where people are going to go to that final stage, where they are in fact incapacity, then what are the arrangements that are going to be in place? So a person that gets dementia, as you know, can probably live roughly five to seven years after the initial diagnosis. That's a long time to be in the control of somebody else, so getting it right really matters. But there's one other thing that's really important for the individual, and that is, if you sign, say, a power of attorney, and the circumstances of the person you've appointed changes, change the attorney. A lot of people sign powers of attorney, and it doesn't become effective for a long time. And in that intervening period, the son or daughter you might have appointed might have had a problem gambling issue. They might, in fact, be under financial stress. They might be, you know, renewing their alcoholism, or what have you. Most people don't know they can change attorneys. But if that's happening, change your attorney. And even if it's your son or daughter, change it, because the notion that that person's going to be controlling your life for seven or eight years, you know, and you do nothing, that's a very sad outcome.

Jim: I remember vividly the whole scenario of doing all of this, but now over time my problem, I lose the information. So, what I've actually set up now, I've no clue what I've actually done, so that resonates with people. It's very confusing, a lot of it. And also, secondly, I wondered, you were power of attorney, I think, for your dad. And when you did things with your dad, did you make it transparent, so as the other siblings could see very clearly? So it was very. is there a sort of format that's good for people to sort of think this is a good way to do it? Because I think sometimes the problem comes because the others don't know what's going on, and then they may have, not suspicious, but they may feel as though there could be something.

Hamish: We were all power of attorney, actually, and it was something called jointly and severally, where you're all, and it's multiple,

Robert: All or one of you.

Hamish: And there had to be more than one signature for everything, which was incredibly complicated. But, actually, what I don't know if there is a template, but my approach was to tell everyone everything.

Robert: Yeah, yes.

Hamish: And I a lot of the time, had the sense that they didn't necessarily want to know. It was like, too much information, we don't care about what's going on. But my view was it was better to be,

Jim: Open

Hamish: Everything on the table, share all the emails, you know, make sure all the tax and the bank statements and everything were shared amongst everyone. I think where it got complicated with Dad was that as he got sick, he told a lot of his friends, or three of his friends precisely, that he didn't have his financial affairs in order and asked them about whether they had retirement planners, and this sort of thing, and could they talk to me. And so, I had three different friends of his come to me and say, your father's asked me to do this and connect you with our financial advisor, so I went off and met them all and said, look, this is the situation, this is Dad's state of affairs. It was pretty messy and chaotic. And then, and then I went back to Dad and said, "Look, I've met with them, I've spoken to my siblings, this is the one that I think might work best". And he said, "I don't want anything like that. It's all a scam. And so it was a real, it was a really confusing thing to navigate. So, when you ask about, you know, is there a template or a framework, and you talk about this sort of negotiation, I found that, really, very difficult because I knew I couldn't actually manage it all on my own. I knew he couldn't, and I knew that at one point his intention was to have some sort of planning advisory in place, even if now he was saying, what? It's tricky. And I've had lots of examples, and I'm sure everyone listening will have some version of that.

Robert: If you're, if you're appointed as an attorney, either jointly or severally, and either it's your own interest to actually, to actually sort of record and or share the information with other people. A lot of the complaints that came into the helplines that exist around Australia are from siblings that actually don't know what's going on, but don't trust their brother or sister anymore, and that's quite common. And there was one involving millions of dollars, and the allegations were very extreme; that the other brother was misusing the funds, mistreating this. Now, as it turned out, when we investigated, that wasn't true. But there was enormous misunderstanding, and it goes back to family tensions that existed years ago. If I were an attorney, I'd be very sure either that I've got a record of what I'm doing, or that I've told other people, or I've got an email saying I'm going to do this. Are you okay with that? Because personalities change, and the problem with it is, if the siblings start to fight, then the person with dementia, or the older person, is going to suffer. They are the, they are the silent partner in this arrangement, and their wellbeing can, in fact, be compromised by these, these confusions. So, my view is very clearly, if you're appointed as an attorney, treat it seriously, talk to other people about it, record the most significant transactions, or at least make sure the other people say, yeah, it's okay with us. It won't deal with, if the family is already dysfunctional, then it's not going to fix anything. But it will protect you, and that's very important in this space.

Hamish: I find a lot of people, though, say to me, Mum or Dad's got a diagnosis, but it sort of feels too early to talk about all that stuff. Or. a parent that's maybe heard about this podcast, or knows about Dad's story and says, Oh, I've got some arrangements in place, I don't feel yet is the time to talk to my kids about it. What do you say to people about.

Robert: If you get a diagnosis of dementia, it's immediately the right time to talk about it, because the danger in this area, but it's not only in relation to dementia, it's generally, is the assumptions people will make. And the worst assumption they can make is that the particular individual no longer has any capacity, or in fact, they'll make assumptions about who in the family is best able to care for them. And you'll find people that show very little interest in the wellbeing of their parents suddenly become absolute experts in the care of those people. So, it's very early, and the earlier you do it, the more thoughtfulness you can be into it, because these are complex issues, and they take times to transact. There's a grieving process by the individual, they're letting go, they're letting control of power. Many of these people that have been in great jobs all their lives suddenly recognise for the very first time in their life, the notion of helplessness. They start to feel helpless, you know. And I talk to groups, I was talking to a group the other day, very wealthy individuals, you know, supremely confident, and they asked a lot of questions. The obvious thing they've thought about is that by the time they get to 85 a lot of them are going for the very first time in their life, actually sense that they're not in control, and that will be very tough. But if you do it early, you can have the conversations, you can negotiate the way through. But it won't be easy, and there is actually no black and white in this at all. The other last comment is, the for the individual that's got dementia, make sure you remain connected to other people outside the family. The most important protective factor is your connectedness to others outside the family, those relationships. So, I'm a huge supporter of dementia support groups, I'm a huge supporter of neighbourhood centres and community activity, because the more you're connected, the safer you will be.

Jim: The more eyes that are on it.

Robert: The more eyes, the better. But, it's actually good for your wellbeing, but you also pick up ideas and thoughts, you gain confidence, you're not going to let other people make decisions quite as quickly. So, the one really, really big protective factor is remain involved with other people for as long as that is humanly possible. Doesn't matter what, it could be a community seeking group, doesn't matter.

Hamish: Robert Fitzgerald. Thank you very much.

Jim: Thanks, Robert.

Robert: Thank you very much. Pleasure.

Hamish: Pretty concerning to hear Robert talk about how subtly financial abuse can sneak in, even from people closest to you.

Jim: I know, for myself, dealing with finances, I mean, I used to be across everything and crossed all the t's and dotted the i's. But literally, as time's gone on, I've passed everything over to Ty, and I haven't got a clue what's going on.

Hamish: Are you doing any of the banking now?

Jim: Nothing. I don't ever look, don't know anything. So, God knows what we've just done in the States, but he's, he's a great, great guy. So, I'm very lucky. But yeah, it is something you sort of lose a bit of a grasp on.

Hamish: So, I guess part of this is having guidance, clear guidance, but also knowing the warning signs before things start to slip.

Jim: Absolutely, Haim. And I spoke with a lady named Deanne, or Dee. She spent 25 years in banking, and she's helped all sorts of people to navigate financial decisions and things you could come across. Then, during Covid, her dad was diagnosed with Lewy body dementia, and she suddenly had to live that reality herself.

Hamish: So, she's seen it from both sides, both the professional and the personal,

Jim: Exactly. And she's got some fantastic practical tips on spotting those warning signs, staying in control, and ways you can protect your independence. Dee, welcome to the podcast. Nice to meet you.

Deanne: Thank you for having me. Nice to meet you too.

Jim: You've supported a lot of people managing their money, particularly after a diagnosis of dementia. Was there a moment when it really hit you that somebody needs protection?

Deanne: Not really. No, because they, they all come in and need protection. I think, when the laws changed to cover elder abuse, it opened our eyes a little bit more to that not everyone is there to do the right thing as an attorney. And when somebody is clearly in the branch very lost and being coerced by somebody, that's when you start realising that we need to put some things in place for the protection of the customer, not the protection of the child.

Jim: Were you finding this was something that was a regular occurrence when people were, you know, you start to notice that some of these people,

Deanne: Well they start, can't remembering their pin number is a good one, they're resetting their pin quite often. Or if they're trying to do internet banking, and they keep locking themselves out of internet banking. I had one very recently, actually, a lady was scammed of $21,000 and she kept coming in to reset her password, and I went to my branch manager, and I said, at what point are we going to draw a line in the sand and call her children and say we've lost capacity because we actually are now putting her in a position of vulnerability.

Jim: I suppose that comes from experience as well, seeing this happen over and over again. Yes. It must be difficult to know what steps to take. What would you suggest for family members who are concerned, you know, about that sort of thing.

Deanne: To be active in their person's life, be it their husband, wife, mother, father, whoever. You can't advocate if you don't know.

Jim: Yeah.

Deanne: Like, be involved in their everyday life and notice small changes and act quickly. We have so many people come in and they've lost capacity, and they don't have a power of attorney. It's too late to write one. You don't have capacity to make one. So then it's, it's a bit harder of what we need to do then to fix the account, so someone else can authorise on the account. Because if we've got no capacity, are we in the territory of elder abuse? Like, how do we know that them, got the ability to make the decision, or someone can handle their money? So, always act fast. If you get a diagnosis of dementia, the first thing that should be told by a doctor is, get your affairs in order; your financial affairs, your health wishes, your financial wishes, get them done immediately.

Jim: With regards to the banking, are there any other examples of things that you've seen that you know you could give our listeners advice on?

Deanne: There's one where, as a lady who lost $67,000 and we haven't got it back, because she, when people come in to do large cash withdrawals, or any cash withdrawals, actually, we have to ask a purpose. And a lot of people think we're being intrusive into their financial, and we're not. We're actually trying to protect you. Yeah, and she took out money and told us it was for a kitchen renovation. She took out $15,000 in cash. Well, like, sounds reasonable. And then she come back in, and she said to the bathroom, and it was like, okay, she's doing a major renovation. Eventually, her daughter figured it out. Again, daughter was in touch with her mother in her life, knew who her mother's friends were, and saw these Facebook Messenger messages

Jim: Oh God.

Deanne: And reached out to her friend, who's the daughter of the alleged person messaging, saying, Hey, did your mum have some involvement in this scam, not a scam, in this investment thing, because she's been messaging my mum about it? And she's like, Mum's been in hospital, she's not been messaging your mum at all. And she's like, gone to her mother saying, Mum, this isn't who you think it is messaging. What have you been doing? And then that's how then they came into the branch, and it all unfolded. Those cash withdrawals were not for a renovation, they were being put into a cryptocurrency ATM, a Bitcoin ATM, and once it's in that, it's gone. And there is no way we can, like, of course the police are involved and everybody's trying their best, but to try and recover that from a Bitcoin ATM is nearly impossible. So, again, the child being involved in Mum's life, looking at the iPad, seeing this message, it didn't look right, stepping in. Sometimes it doesn't have to be you're the power of attorney, you're just a child who's got your finger on the pulse.

Jim: Managing banking is confusing to so many, but then adding a dementia diagnosis into the mix makes it so tricky. So, let's talk a little bit about financial literacy, and what are the most important concepts families really do need to understand.

Deanne: Okay, well, the big one that most people don't understand,

Jim: Let's unpack that.

Deanne: and I tell people all the time, they come in, sadly, the person's now passed away from dementia, or whatever it may be, and they're like, under power of attorney, I want to do this. Power of attorney seizes upon death. It doesn't matter, it's gone.

Jim: Wow.

Deanne: So, you have to have, then the executor kicks in, or the next of kin. So then there's two, you know, the Will has to be in place. And again, consideration into, is the executor going to be the same person as the power of attorney, or is that somebody different? And has the power of, if it is somebody different, has the power of attorney communicated along the way with the executor, so that transition follows through. And so, when you're doing that estate planning, and think about that, is my power of attorney going to be my executor, is it going to be seamless, is there going to be confusion, is it going to cause arguments, like, is it somebody I trust is the big one. If you can trust them to advocate for you in life, then you can probably trust them to advocate for your finances in death. But they don't, the power of attorney does not carry over.

Jim: I think a lot of people don't think about the after effect. They think just the lead up, so that's really important advice.

Deanne: And at the time when you're first diagnosed, your world's crumbling down, like, you are not thinking of those things. And I think the doctors and the medical professionals need to lead with that. They need to be trained that, don't just give a diagnosis and say, well, good luck, on your way. Give them some tools, or you know, a contact number of Dementia Australia, somebody who then is qualified to say, hey, let's get some things in place, so we can take that off the table, and we're not worried about that anymore. And we can just focus on making memories, looking after your health. You know, the hard bit's done, like, get it done early, pack that away, and then we can just focus on the journey.

Jim: After your dad was diagnosed, you must have experienced a lot of those feelings when you first found out, because there's, not one case fits all, is there?

Deanne: No, there's not. And again, we were just given a diagnosis of dad of, he has Lewy body dementia. Not what did that, what that meant, not what that would mean down the track. It was basically good luck, here's an antidepressant that might help him, and see you later. And then it was digging for information, and constantly researching, and challenging, and nobody guides you, and I was never actually told, here's Dementia Australia's phone number, here's a counsellor, here's this. I had no idea or help on what to expect, and that was emotionally, physically, health wise, and financially. Like, I knew financially from my career, and I had already set myself up that I was a signatory to my parents' account, I was signatory to my grandparents' account when my grandfather got diagnosed with dementia. So, I've always led them that way, and that was hard financial when I knew what I was doing, but it was harder to know how to help dad at home and how to reassure him when he was making these decisions, that his life wasn't over. It was going to eventually be, but we just had to do these things now, while he could be empowered to make those decisions, like while he had the ability to say this is what I want, this is what I don't want. And that was down to his choices of his death even, not just financial. He spelt out everything that he wanted, and how he wanted to happen, and in the end I'm sure that gave him peace, because,

Jim: He felt in control.

Deanne: he was in control.

Jim: Another thing that's really apparent at the moment is financial scams, and they're a danger to everybody, right? But how do scams tend to impact people, in particular, who are living with dementia, from what you've seen?

Deanne: They're just more vulnerable, and I don't know why, but it seems in dementia people trust people more don't know if that's like a veil comes, my dad would trust anybody, he almost became like a child again.

Jim: A little bit more inferior, if you like, you know, because I think, do you think,

Deanne: I think they're lost, they're just latching on to anybody to feel safe and,

Jim: Especially anybody in authority.

Deanne: Correct. Or sadly, just anybody. My dad, people in the middle of the shopping centre selling raffle tickets. I had gone to the bathroom, and I come out, and I could see dad had his credit card out, I'd just left him there. And I said, what are you doing? And they said, oh, they just signed him up for a year long monthly direct debit. And I said, did you ask him his name? And he said, oh no. I said, ask him. He couldn't remember his own name. I said, here you are taking his credit card, and I made sure they ripped up that piece of paper, but you know, Dad would have just seen it was a reputable charity that he dealt with previously, and he's, he would have just thought he was giving a once-off donation and doing the right thing. And yet there was actually a little bit of a, you know, not, I wouldn't say the, just a misunderstanding on their behalf of, you can't set him up for an ongoing direct debit when he doesn't clearly know what he's signing up for. And that's not even a scam, that's just misunderstanding, but scamming, the lady I was talking about earlier, she was giving them the one time code that comes through. On the telephone, she was saying this is the code, oh yes, and gave it to them again. She gave it to them six times, you know, like, they just. and I think they're from a generation when you could trust people.

Jim: Yeah.

Deanne: The elderly dementia, there are younger dementia, but older dementia, they're from a time when someone said they were calling to do this, they were calling to do that thing. Whereas now, they're not calling from Microsoft, you know, they're calling from some scamming centre, and they're trying to get your credit card details. And because people with dementia are much more vulnerable, they just give it.

Jim: Would you have one thing that you would share as some advice for any carer or somebody who's been touched by dementia right now, in your experience?

Deanne: Just to act quickly. Just to make sure you have things in place that are watertight with somebody that you trust, and just to, yeah, be involved. Like, I know it's really hard, everyone's busy, but even if it is just online, hop in and check their accounts. And just be aware that these people aren't choosing to forget, they're not choosing to make your life hard. Their brain is deteriorating, and they just,they need your help.

Jim: Thank you so much for coming in, and thanks for sharing all your advice. Really appreciated.

Deanne: Thank you.

Jim: That's Deanne, who cared for her dad with Lewy body dementia.

Hamish: Before Deanne, you heard from Robert Fitzgerald. He's the Age Discrimination Commissioner for the Australian Human Rights Commission.

Jim: Hold the Moment is a podcast from Dementia Australia, produced by Deadset Studios.

Hamish: You can find more episodes and resources on Dementia Australia's website, dementia.org.au and make sure you're following Hold the Moment, so you don't miss an episode.

Jim: This show is hosted by me, Jim Rogers,

Hamish: and by me, Hamish Macdonald. The executive producers are Kellie Riordan and Sarah Dabro. The producer is Liam Riordan. Production manager is Ann Chesterman. Sound design by Slade Gibson.

Jim: And a special thanks to the whole team at Dementia Australia, and to everyone who shared their stories on this.

[BEGINNING OF RECORDED MATERIAL]

Hold the Moment guest Deanne and host Jim

About the episode

Financial abuse is increasing in Australia at a rapid rate, and people living with dementia or disability are among the most vulnerable targets.

Dee has spent more than 25 years in banking, often working to educate strangers and clients about financial scams and abuse. When her own father was diagnosed with dementia, this mission took on a personal dimension.

Robert Fitzgerald AM, the Age Discrimination Commissioner for the Australian Human Rights Commission, lays out the most common patterns of financial abuse, and explains why a dementia diagnosis is precisely the moment to act, not wait.

Resources and support

Within the Dementia Australia Library the following topic guide is relevant to this episode and may be useful:
- Future planning and dementia

Watch the interview

In this video we go one on one with our podcast guests

Deanne's Story: Financial control | An extended Hold the Moment Interview

Ask Us Anything

Ask Us Anything: How do I future-proof my finances?

Transcript

[BEGINNING OF RECORDED TRANSCRIPT]

Kevyn: Hello. My name is Kevyn. I am a First Nations advocate with Dementia Australia. These lands in which we are meeting are many countries filled with languages similar and different. For more than 50,000 years, we have come together to trade knowledge, to learn and to teach. Today, we join to keep up that tradition. So with that in mind, we now pay our respects to the traditional owners, to elders past and present, to those First Nations people joining us here today. Welcome and thank you.

Jim: Managing money is tricky for anyone, and dementia can make it even harder. So what are the best ways to keep control and make informed choices around our finances? Hi, I'm Jim Rogers, and this is Hold The Moment. It's Dementia Australia's award winning podcast, which gives you real stories, insights and support when you're dealing with dementia, on our Ask Me Anything episodes, you send us the questions that you'd like answered about living well with dementia. Here's Jenny.

Jenny: Hi there. I'm Jenny. I'm in Geelong, and I've just been diagnosed with dementia. Right now I can manage my own finances, but what should I do now to get ready for when I might not be able to manage it myself?

Jim: To give some insights, here's Rose Capp, a policy advisor at Dementia Australia, and the author of Demystifying Dementia.

Rose: It's really positive that you've already started thinking ahead. Jenny, that's really great, and planning is your friend here. Thinking about the future and future financial issues is really one of the most common concerns people have. So you might want to start thinking about what kind of future financial provisions and arrangements you'll need to make. And this might be both short term and longer term considerations. You might think about doing some travel, and you need to sort of consider the costs involved in that, but in terms of longer term financial decisions, you might also want to start thinking about where you might want to be living in the future, the kind of medical treatment and care options that you're looking at, and all the associated costs involved with those. And I think one of the most obvious questions to ask yourself here is, who would I like to have to help me make those kind of financial decisions? So you need to think about the trusted people around you. Who would you like to help you make financial planning and other decisions? Have a discussion with those people, and it could be family members, but it might also be friends, neighbors or colleagues. You might also want to talk to someone at your bank and explore the options there. You might want to think about appointing a trusted person as a co signatory to your bank accounts. You might also want to think about other measures, for instance, appointing a power of attorney. Now, power of attorney is a legal document, which means that you nominate a person, or perhaps several people, to act for you and to make financial decisions for you, if you're unable to make those decisions for yourself, and if you appointed a financial power of attorney, that means that person or people could do things like manage your bank account, pay your bills, perhaps buy or sell property on your behalf. Now, unfortunately, the legislation and the requirements in different states and territories in this country, of course, they differ, so you're going to have to check on the particular requirements, the documents involved and the processes that you have to follow depending on the state and territory where you live, dementia. Australia has got some really helpful resources here. So if you hop onto the website, you can pop in planning ahead, and you'll find all sorts of useful bits of information and some guidance there.

Jim: And next, question comes from a listener who works at a bank. I know all about that because my husband's in banking.

Jackie: Hello. My name is Jackie, and I work in a bank here in Hobart, and we have a bunch of lovely customers who live with dementia, and I often see people helping them with their banking. But what do I do if something doesn't seem quite right and I'm worried that someone might be being taken advantage of?

Rose: Look, I think your awareness of this issue is a really good start. Jackie, this can be a tricky and a complicated situation, so you want to respond. Affect the identity and the independence of the person you're concerned about. You also want to ensure that if the person has cognitive impairment or dementia, that they're not being financially exploited, and then they're not a victim of financial abuse. So my first suggestion would be, really the simplest one, and that is just to respectfully ask the person if they need assistance, so you could check if they know why they've come into the bank today. What are they here for? What kind of a transaction Are they planning to do? Get a sense of whether they know what their bank accounts are called or a PIN number, for instance. So try and get a little bit of a context of the situation. And if they're confused about any of that, that might be a bit of a red flag and a cause for concern if you felt comfortable doing it, and if it was appropriate, you could also ask about the person who's accompanied them, you could ask them what their relationship is to the person. Are they a family member, perhaps, or why they are support worker. And again, this will give you a little bit more information about the context and help you understand what's going on for that person in terms of banking processes. You could also check that person's bank account see whether any kind of unusual patterns transactions for large withdrawals when they've been in the company of someone else. And again, these might be sort of red flags and causes for potential concern. And I think if any of those things are apparent, this would be a good trigger to escalate the situation and report that to your manager or your supervisor. And I believe there's all sorts of alerts that can be put on bank accounts if there's concern about the types of transactions that are going on, so that the next time this person comes into the bank, there'll be a little query there, and whoever is assisting them will be aware of the potential situation. But I'd also just always encourage you, Jackie, to engage with the person in a respectful and supportive manner at all times as that will be really helpful.

Jim: If you've got a question, you can also call the free National Dementia Helpline on 1800 100 500. Dementia Australia's trained advisors are available 24 hours a day, every day of the year. And look out for more episodes of Hold The Moment. This episode was produced by Deadset studios for Dementia Australia.

[END OF RECORDED MATERIAL]

You asked, we answered

This episode answers questions about putting the right supports in place, and what to do if you’re worried someone might be taking advantage of a person living with dementia. Rose, a Policy Advisor at Dementia Australia, offers practical and compassionate strategies.

Potrait of Hamish and Jim, podcast hosts

About the podcast

Hold the Moment is an award-winning podcast from Dementia Australia full of real stories about life after a dementia diagnosis.

Season Three dives into the topics that can be hardest to talk about, with compassion, practicality and a unique sense of hope.

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Last updated

22 July 2026